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Author Topic: HIGH OUTPUT CHARGING SYSTEM  (Read 12737 times)
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realshelby
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09/28/09 1955 Hours
Posts: 497

'12 '04 Wee, '03 Vee
Houston, Tx
Online
« on: 06/10/11 2128 Hours »
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Can anybody guess what this is all about?



Recently I had a charging system failure that left me stranded. While I was diagnosing that the subject of an external alternator was brought up. I tried my best to ignore it. The problems with the charging system were a burned out stator and then I found the magnets for the rotor were loose. I ordered a new Suzuki OEM Rotor, Stator, and I ordered one of the MOSFET R/R's and an LED voltage idiot light. Most sensable humans would have installed the new parts and rode away.

I run Gerbings heated gear and the marginal charging system would allow the headlights to pulse in brightness as the Gerbings controller turned on/off. Irritating, but still the battery maintained full charge. I like lights. But, I cannot really add a couple 55 watt lights to the front of the Vee and feel comfortable running them all the time. So, the more I thought about the external alternator the more I could see it was feasable. I am not done but I thought I would post what is going on in case someone has a brainstorm to add. You can see in the picture the crank driven pulley is ready for use. The bracket on the front upper part of the magneto cover is the base for the mount for the alternator.
« Last Edit: 07/15/11 1304 Hours by realshelby » Logged

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realshelby
***
09/28/09 1955 Hours
Posts: 497

'12 '04 Wee, '03 Vee
Houston, Tx
Online
« REPLY #1 on: 06/10/11 2136 Hours »
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I am not sure if it is required, but I added an outboard support bearing to the shaft. If the bearing is not required this would be a VERY simple literally bolt on modification to make the crank drive pulley setup. I machined an aluminum bushing to fit the bearing to the magneto cover. There is a slight taper to the fixture in the cover I made the mount for so it took a bit of carefull machining to get a good fit. Here is a picture of the bushing with the exterior side of the bearing.


This is the interior side of the bearing. I drilled and tapped two small holes in the magneto housing to secure the bearing/bushing. I countersunk the fastener heads for clearance.

This is the finished bearing setup

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realshelby
***
09/28/09 1955 Hours
Posts: 497

'12 '04 Wee, '03 Vee
Houston, Tx
Online
« REPLY #2 on: 06/10/11 2150 Hours »
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Clearance was a bit more of an issue than I first thought. I ended up sinking the flanged bearing into the bushing to gain clearance. I still wanted a bit more clearance so I mounted up the expensive new rotor and took .050" off the face of the mounting flange. Don't ask how long it took to get all the metal off the magnets.



I ended up making three different versions of the shaft. I felt like a bolt from the outside going all the way thru the shaft and holding everything against the crankshaft would be the most secure method. The end of the shaft is threaded to fit the rotor. This is screwed in tight and the flange on the shaft mates very nicely to the machined surface of the rotor. The bore hole thru the shaft has very little clearance for the bolt I made to mount the pulley, shaft, rotor to the crank.




I machined a step into the end of the shaft and one in the pulley so the bolt will hold them tightly. I also made a couple dimples for set screws to help secure the pulley.

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realshelby
***
09/28/09 1955 Hours
Posts: 497

'12 '04 Wee, '03 Vee
Houston, Tx
Online
« REPLY #3 on: 06/10/11 2155 Hours »
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Next up is mounting the alternator. I bought one of the compact Denso style single wire units. Depth is workable but I can see that I might be machining a set of custom pulleys if this works out. I will have to move one of the bars for the crash bars but otherwise fabrication has not required any changes to the factory parts. I could go back to the stock system anytime. I simply cut the wires to the bad stator and reinstalled the Hall Effect sensor. More to follow.
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johnofchar
Former VSRI Administrator
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10/19/03 1511 Hours
Posts: 12035

SV-Strom & K9 ABS Wee
Charleston SC USA
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« REPLY #4 on: 06/11/11 0029 Hours »
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Looking very good so far!  Thumbs Up
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realshelby
***
09/28/09 1955 Hours
Posts: 497

'12 '04 Wee, '03 Vee
Houston, Tx
Online
« REPLY #5 on: 06/23/11 1315 Hours »
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Progress on this project has been slow lately. I did get the basic mounting position of the alternator worked out and the mount tacked together. Looks like I'll have enough room to swing the alternator for belt tensioning. I now have to start the hunt for a belt that will fit. Once I find that I'll need to reinforce the mounting system and make the bracket for the upper tensioning adjustment. Depending on how the belt lies in the pulleys I may need to adjust the depth of the pulleys. I have the exterior of the pulleys exactly square, but I am not sure the inner portion where the belt runs is matching perfectly. Easy to fix if it is off.

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richw
****
03/11/10 2115 Hours
Posts: 604
DL1000K6
Baltic, Conn. USA
Offline
« REPLY #6 on: 06/23/11 1517 Hours »
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You used to be able to get pulleys that were 2 pcs. 

Belt tension by narrowing the gap forcing the belt outwards.

Browning transmission  maybe
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realshelby
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09/28/09 1955 Hours
Posts: 497

'12 '04 Wee, '03 Vee
Houston, Tx
Online
« REPLY #7 on: 06/23/11 1521 Hours »
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My desire is to get it up an running on this setup. Once I see that everything is working out and there is no reason that I would want to go back to a stock charging system I plan to machine two pulleys and use a 4 rib belt. That should be more than able to handle the load the alternator will put on it. The 4 rib will be narrower than the v-belt. The 4 rib should be better suited for high rpm use as well.
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richw
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03/11/10 2115 Hours
Posts: 604
DL1000K6
Baltic, Conn. USA
Offline
« REPLY #8 on: 06/23/11 1756 Hours »
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I used to need a weird flat belt

I had good luck with "the belt store"

I also used 6 rib belts for spindles up to 10K RPM's no problem
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realshelby
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09/28/09 1955 Hours
Posts: 497

'12 '04 Wee, '03 Vee
Houston, Tx
Online
« REPLY #9 on: 06/23/11 1810 Hours »
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I was able to find a 4L250 and 4L260 belt at Advanced Auto Parts at lunchtime. These are 25 and 26 inches by 1/2" wide. One or both should fit. What is good about this is that they should be readily available anywhere. Depending on how they do in operation, that might be a reason to keep them instead of going to a multi rib setup.
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richw
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03/11/10 2115 Hours
Posts: 604
DL1000K6
Baltic, Conn. USA
Offline
« REPLY #10 on: 06/23/11 2153 Hours »
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Take the time to include a cover mount
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realshelby
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09/28/09 1955 Hours
Posts: 497

'12 '04 Wee, '03 Vee
Houston, Tx
Online
« REPLY #11 on: 06/24/11 1244 Hours »
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Starting to look better! The 25" ( 4L250 ) belt is a perfect fit. I'll keep the 26" belt on the bike for a spare. Not happy with the looks of the top adjustment bracket. It is 100% functional but looks tacky. If I had a mill I could machine something that looks factory. Next up is bracing the main mount. When squeezing the belt together by hand there is a slight flex in the lower mount. I had planned to reinforce this anyway. I have a couple ideas for a cover but that is the last thing I'll focus on. Wiring this up ( single wire alternator ) is not as simple at just hooking the alternator to the battery. I'll have to bug John more about that.

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realshelby
***
09/28/09 1955 Hours
Posts: 497

'12 '04 Wee, '03 Vee
Houston, Tx
Online
« REPLY #12 on: 06/29/11 1257 Hours »
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Finished up the mount last night. Added bracing to eliminate flex. Wanted this part rigid for long term durability and no issues with belt alignment under load. Adding the brace that goes against the round portion of the magneto cover should really help spread out the load.



I tried a pic with the engine running but you couldn't see the motion. At any rate this is the setup after I test ran it. No visible deflection in the alternator or crank pulley when whacking the throttle open. No noises at all. I took a moment to sit on the bike to check foot to shifter clearance. No problems there at all. Plenty of room to build a nice cover. I ran it up to some high rpms, belt seemed to do fine. I encased the heavy gauge wire from alternator post to battery in the split plastic conduit for extra protection. You can see it in front of the rear cylinder.



Everything including the wiring went really well.

EXCEPT THE $#%& THING ISN'T CHARGING!  Neutral  Alternator seemed to get very hot. I removed it and will take it to the alternator shop to test it....more to follow......
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realshelby
***
09/28/09 1955 Hours
Posts: 497

'12 '04 Wee, '03 Vee
Houston, Tx
Online
« REPLY #13 on: 06/30/11 1322 Hours »
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Alternator is fixed. Seems I might have mashed the thin back cover just in the right place that it shorted out the rectifier. Actually, I hope that is what did it so at least I am to blame and not the alternator! As many times as I had it on and off and holding it in different positions I can see how it might have happened. Moral of the story is to be careful with the Denso style ( 93mm) alternators with their paper thin back cover!

Bike charges properly. So running an alternator backward is no problem at all as far as that goes. Since the Denso style has an internal fan it appears that running it in reverse won't effect cooling much at all. Since the alternator is in the open air with direct flow while moving it will likely run cooler than it would have in an automotive environment. Very happy with how the belt and pulleys are doing. Alternator "kicks in" about 1800 rpm ( where the lights brighten noticeably ). I'll need to do some testing to see if it is putting out enough at idle. I can change pulley ratios to effect that but right now I think it is good. Next is to put all the luggage rack parts, side panels, etc back on and ride it. If that goes well I'll start on fabrication of the cover.  Thumbs Up
« Last Edit: 06/30/11 1323 Hours by realshelby » Logged

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greywolf
*****
01/31/06 0643 Hours
Posts: 3254

DL650AL2
Evanston IL USA
www Online
« REPLY #14 on: 06/30/11 1404 Hours »
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Then we should see conversion kits become available next winter when we can take off the covers for a core exchange with little real down time.   Evil
I love stuff like this.
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Pat
Nicknames I use to lessen typing - Vee=2002 - 2012 DL1000s, Veek=2014+DL1000As, Wee=2004-2011 DL650s, Glee=2012+DL650As
realshelby
***
09/28/09 1955 Hours
Posts: 497

'12 '04 Wee, '03 Vee
Houston, Tx
Online
« REPLY #15 on: 06/30/11 1551 Hours »
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Then we should see conversion kits become available next winter when we can take off the covers for a core exchange with little real down time.   Evil
I love stuff like this.


With the exception of the two small holes I drilled and tapped in the magneto cover to hold the bearing in place, and maybe the removal of the stator, there are ZERO modifications to the factory parts to do this so far! If the bearing is not necessary and leaving the stator in place ( unplugged at the side panel connector ) is ok there would be no reason to remove the magneto cover. Need to put a lot of miles on this to see how it goes. Until I bump the rev limiter a few times and get some miles on it there is just no way to prove its durability. I feel good about it at this point. I think the 650 crowd would benefit more from this. I'll have to look the Wee over to see if it would work on it.
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johnofchar
Former VSRI Administrator
Former Member
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10/19/03 1511 Hours
Posts: 12035

SV-Strom & K9 ABS Wee
Charleston SC USA
www Offline
« REPLY #16 on: 06/30/11 2039 Hours »
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I'm lovin' it.  Thumbs Up Beer Thumbs Up
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richw
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03/11/10 2115 Hours
Posts: 604
DL1000K6
Baltic, Conn. USA
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« REPLY #17 on: 06/30/11 2243 Hours »
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Very nice job

The 3 times I had to use a single wire alternator they had to be trained so diodes (I think) would act normally

When I also had one lieing around for 4 months it had to be retrained

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realshelby
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09/28/09 1955 Hours
Posts: 497

'12 '04 Wee, '03 Vee
Houston, Tx
Online
« REPLY #18 on: 07/05/11 1309 Hours »
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1st Ride!  Put about 50 miles on it last evening. Bumped the rev limiter a few times to prove belt durability and alignment. Perfect. I installed one of the LED voltage idiot lights from the place that sells the MOSFET R/R's and it is either bad or I tapped into wires that are lower than standard voltage. I tried two different wires. Blinks red all the time and I know from the voltmeter and watching the lights it is charging properly. I'll run it directly off the battery to test it. Puts out about 14.25 volts when rpms are above 2000. Bike did not hiccup one time. I am thinking I may have had low voltage issues for a while before the complete failure that started this project. More on that after some more miles. I am sure the bike is much smoother than before, and that is because the new rotor has the magnets evenly spaced. There is no issue at all with my foot hitting the pulley when downshifting. Plenty of room to build the cover. 

Negatives....just one so far. The oil seal in the magneto cover is not staying in place. Moved about 1/8" and that caused a couple drops of oil to bypass the outer part of seal. I'll have to look that over and see how to make that never happen again. Plenty of options there to fix it.

I did have to relocate one of the bars on the crash bar. I think once I have a cover mounted most would not notice anything out of the ordinary.
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johnofchar
Former VSRI Administrator
Former Member
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10/19/03 1511 Hours
Posts: 12035

SV-Strom & K9 ABS Wee
Charleston SC USA
www Offline
« REPLY #19 on: 07/05/11 1709 Hours »
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How are the battery/charging volts at idle?
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Preload
*****
04/30/05 0723 Hours
Posts: 2822

DL650K5 Poverty model
North East UK
www Offline
« REPLY #20 on: 07/05/11 1854 Hours »
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RS, that is a great looking conversion even without the final tweaks you will undoubtedly do on the belt adjuster bracket. I never imagined such a neat set up, the alternator fits real good in that space.
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Lessons learned; When there's only two left, wait till you receive yours before letting a buddy in on the deal ; )
I'd normally be in the garage around now.
realshelby
***
09/28/09 1955 Hours
Posts: 497

'12 '04 Wee, '03 Vee
Houston, Tx
Online
« REPLY #21 on: 07/05/11 1924 Hours »
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RS, that is a great looking conversion even without the final tweaks you will undoubtedly do on the belt adjuster bracket. I never imagined such a neat set up, the alternator fits real good in that space.

The upper bracket is less of a concern than at first. I made a sliding cover for it that covers the exposed slot which cleaned up the appearance. When I put back the crash bar back it covered up even more of it. I approached this with a "function is beauty" attitude, I could make it look better if I done another one. It looks better in person than the pictures show.

I'll get some voltage readings soon.
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realshelby
***
09/28/09 1955 Hours
Posts: 497

'12 '04 Wee, '03 Vee
Houston, Tx
Online
« REPLY #22 on: 07/07/11 1317 Hours »
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Voltage Check:
Key on, engine off    12.18 volts
Idle ( 1,100 rpm )     12.6-7 volts
1500 rpm                13.9 volts
1800 rpm                14.2 volts
2000 rpm and up seems to stabilize at 14.25 volts

I plan to run two 100 watt lights up front and will test output with those on later. That will be the real test!

Shaft seal may need some thinking. I now suspect that crankcase pressure is a factor in why it came loose. I plan to machine a replacement for the factory inspection cover on the magneto cover that will allow me to install the seal from the inside and seat it against a lip I will leave on the outer portion of the seal bore. Seal could not be forced out by internal pressure with this lip holding it. I'll have to figure out a way to install this onto the cover and that might best be done by drilling into the cover to secure it. At this point I am happy enough with this modification that I am willing to modify the factory parts if that is the best course. I plan on making this setup permanent!  Thumbs Up
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johnofchar
Former VSRI Administrator
Former Member
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10/19/03 1511 Hours
Posts: 12035

SV-Strom & K9 ABS Wee
Charleston SC USA
www Offline
« REPLY #23 on: 07/07/11 1429 Hours »
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Right now your volts are OK. Be interested in max load voltage. Doubt if it's crankcase pressure as there is a good size breather hose.
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realshelby
***
09/28/09 1955 Hours
Posts: 497

'12 '04 Wee, '03 Vee
Houston, Tx
Online
« REPLY #24 on: 07/07/11 1501 Hours »
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Doubt if it's crankcase pressure as there is a good size breather hose.

Did you ever take off the oil fill cap on the clutch cover with the engine running? You will be surprised at the power of the pulses of air. Not ring blowby, simply air displacement of the rotating assembly. At any rate I have had a vision. I'll see if I can work on that over the weekend. If this is the worst problem I have to work thru I have got it made in the shade!

I would like to know what the stock system voltages are at the same rpms I listed above. I could change pulleys to raise low rpm voltage but don't think there is much benefit in that. The real test will be adding the 200 watt load. If voltages are close to what I posted above with the increased load I don't think I'll change the pulley ratio. Right now I am running a 1.5:1 ( 4.5" drive to 3" driven ) ratio.
« Last Edit: 07/07/11 1502 Hours by realshelby » Logged

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johnofchar
Former VSRI Administrator
Former Member
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10/19/03 1511 Hours
Posts: 12035

SV-Strom & K9 ABS Wee
Charleston SC USA
www Offline
« REPLY #25 on: 07/07/11 2014 Hours »
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I agree. If with load you can maintain 12.6 at idle that is very good.
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richw
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03/11/10 2115 Hours
Posts: 604
DL1000K6
Baltic, Conn. USA
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« REPLY #26 on: 07/07/11 2042 Hours »
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I have seen big lights melt plastic housings...  keep an eye out
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danketchpel
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04/19/11 0242 Hours
Posts: 3
2006 DL1000
Camarillo, CA
Offline
« REPLY #27 on: 07/07/11 2111 Hours »
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Very interesting modification. It certainly leads to much greater charging capacity and the option of greater output at lower engine rpm.

If with load you can maintain 12.6 at idle that is very good.

As a benchmark, after installing the MOSFET R/R in my Vee I was able to get 12.5.-12.7v at idle with my Powerlett 105w jacket liner/controller turned on full blast. It hit 14.25v with the liner on full at about 3,000 rpm or so if I remember correctly.

The control of the MOSFET R/R is very good.
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06 DL1000
09 KLR650
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realshelby
***
09/28/09 1955 Hours
Posts: 497

'12 '04 Wee, '03 Vee
Houston, Tx
Online
« REPLY #28 on: 07/14/11 1319 Hours »
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I mentioned having a vision.....

       I rethought the bearing seal mount. By moving the bearing and seal to the outer side of the magneto cover I eliminate any issues with internal clearances. The bearing is now closer to the pulley and will better support the shaft. The machined bushing gives me a much better place to mount the oil seal. If I have any issue with the seal now I can add a mechanical stop to keep it in place. The "Vision" I had was of how to mount the bushing to the magneto cover. Since there are (3) bosses cast into the cover for the factory to drill and tap to hold the original stator I realized this was the perfect support for an external bushing! By using a drill bit small enough not to hurt the threads I simply drilled thru the cover from inside out to locate the holes. Then I drilled from the outside down to the threads with a clearance size bit.



I machined a lip in the bushing to tightly fit the inside of the magneto cover. With the lip on the bearing holding it in the bushing the tapered area of the cover holds it in place from the other side.



These pictures show the bushing as I was building it. There is plenty of room to install the seal. I removed the dust cover from the interior side of the bearing so it gets engine oil for lube and cooling.



This picture shows the bushing mounted on the cover but without the bearing/seal in place. Maybe tonight I can get the assembly reinstallation completed. Then I have an idea for the alternator mount that might improve it............
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johnofchar
Former VSRI Administrator
Former Member
******
10/19/03 1511 Hours
Posts: 12035

SV-Strom & K9 ABS Wee
Charleston SC USA
www Offline
« REPLY #29 on: 07/14/11 1325 Hours »
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Looks good. Still plenty of room for pulley I take it?
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