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Author Topic: Wrong conclusion - broken TPS & symptoms  (Read 6914 times)
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ib
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« on: 04/17/10 2217 Hours »
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I just experienced another broken TPS - mine  Shocked

I tried to synchronize the bike today, and this was a second attempt in the last few days. After start, engine was trembling, but I give it a try waiting to reach the working temperature. With the best efforts, it was IMPOSSIBLE to set the display show the middle dash when idling and upper when revs reach 1500. Absolutely impossible. Engine would stall immediately.

The second symptom, after revving the engine, the revs would stay high, at 4000 revs or even more. Throttle operation is optimal, primary butterflies have unobstructed movement and they return to initial position instantaneously after being opened and released. I could decrease the revs only by moving the primary TPS sensor. But after the revs would drop to 1000, the engine would stall. Starting the engine again would result in very nervous operation, using too much petrol (smell, smoke...), revving would again leave the revs high. Note that primary butterflies were almost closed, so the TPS was sending a wrong information to ECU, which in turn was injecting too much petrol.

Finally, I have decided to remove the TPS and order for a new one is on the way. I'll report the change.
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ib
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« REPLY #1 on: 04/24/10 1113 Hours »
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John, help needed... Something went very wrong. New TPS, the same symptoms. Bike is nervous, smells petrol when idling and I can see the black smoke going out of the exhaust. Whatever I do, there is no change and improvement.

What I did is - I released the TPS 3-4 weeks ago in order to put the bar on the dash to middle position, and ever since I touched it, it was impossible to get it running right.

I have a plan to get the bike to dealer because I've lost idea what might be wrong, and working on the bike in the garage makes too much noise if it runs for a long time. I'm a bit depressed...
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TroyJ746
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« REPLY #2 on: 04/24/10 1352 Hours »
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Are you using a Power Commander?  I had this before I set the Closed Throttle Position in the PCIII. 
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ib
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« REPLY #3 on: 04/24/10 1415 Hours »
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Are you using a Power Commander?  I had this before I set the Closed Throttle Position in the PCIII.  

No PC... I have started to seriously question all the known methods for TPS adjustment. The one from Suzuki Video DOES NOT work for my bike. I did many synchronizations until now, the one from the video worked on just 2 or 3 bikes. On all others, I had to do it by the feeling and "ear", just to get the bike run at all.

Using method from video, bike have too much petrol and is running very nervous.

I'm going to the garage soon to check the resistances on sensor/injector coupler.
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ib
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« REPLY #4 on: 04/24/10 1507 Hours »
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Was in the garage, replaced ECU, the same. I have no idea what might be wrong.

The only other thing that might influence the engine is spark plugs. I've replaced them with new plugs. Next thing to check.

Wired  Huh?
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johnofchar
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« REPLY #5 on: 04/24/10 1525 Hours »
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You don't have an SDC or OBD tool avail do you?

Since it seems to be TPS related, but that's a maybe, I'll check all the voltages, grounds & wires to ECU for the TPS.
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ib
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« REPLY #6 on: 04/24/10 1541 Hours »
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You don't have an SDC or OBD tool avail do you?

Since it seems to be TPS related, but that's a maybe, I'll check all the voltages, grounds & wires to ECU for the TPS.

Tool is not with me, so I can't check.

There's also one other thing, and feel so ashamed... I forgot to attach the vacuum hose to the IAP sensor  Shocked

It's is amazing I didn't broke the bike this time having so many other things going around in life... I'll go now to the garage and check, once again.
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ib
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« REPLY #7 on: 04/24/10 1640 Hours »
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Ok, here are some more, hope we will find the problem.

This is the TP sensor/injector coupler:



Measuring resistance:



Throttle closed:



This is out of spec, unfortunately. Spec say approx. 1.1 kOhm

After I positioned sensor to the dead end to reduce the reading, the lowest I could get was 1.3 kOhm

The upper range (Throttle valve fully opened) gave 4.24 kOhm, again lower than spec, but close. The problem is that lower is much higher than it should be. So not moving the TPS, lower 1.4, upper 4.2  Huh?

After putting the sensor in position to satisfy the upper range, the lower got even more disturbed. The best I could get: 4.31 kOhm



Lower was now at 1.58 kOhm :



The IAP sensor and forgotten hose:




But it didn't change anything at all, unfortunately  Sad

Also, one final thing - I couldn't get the dash anywhere moving TPS sensor to terminate position on both sides. It was always there:




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ib
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« REPLY #8 on: 04/24/10 1649 Hours »
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I have to say, I did't measure resistance to ground, left for the next visit to garage. Now I'm sick of this, the day is just beautiful and  ... Wall
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johnofchar
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« REPLY #9 on: 04/24/10 1652 Hours »
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Supply voltage & grounds from ECU, if not good then wiring to ECU. As per service manual.

There is a sensor grounding block on the left side harness, bunch of black/brown wires. Can't remember if it's taped up inside harness or outside of harness.

EDIT: Make that outside.

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ib
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« REPLY #10 on: 04/24/10 1713 Hours »
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John, one question. The negative result of 2nd test (per manual) say:

"Reset the TP sensor
position correctly.
Replace the TP sensor
with a new one"

I'm just using a new sensor, so I'm a bit confused...

But I suggest better to wait until I measure the remaining resistances and voltages.
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johnofchar
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« REPLY #11 on: 04/24/10 2025 Hours »
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John, one question. The negative result of 2nd test (per manual) say:

"Reset the TP sensor
position correctly.
Replace the TP sensor
with a new one"

I'm just using a new sensor, so I'm a bit confused...

But I suggest better to wait until I measure the remaining resistances and voltages.

 Huh? Can't say I've every measured the DL sensor that I remember. So don't know if the manual specs are right or not. Seem to remember others have and found them not to line up at both ends.
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ib
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« REPLY #12 on: 04/25/10 0909 Hours »
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I'll put the whole TB down and inspect it thoroughly. Anyway no time to ride the bike, so I can play...
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johnofchar
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« REPLY #13 on: 04/25/10 1228 Hours »
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You still need to check voltages & wiring if voltages bad. Do you have another meter?
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« REPLY #14 on: 04/25/10 1231 Hours »
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You still need to check voltages & wiring if voltages bad. Do you have another meter?

John, found it... My fault. I'll explain later today  Thumbs Up
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ib
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« REPLY #15 on: 04/25/10 1847 Hours »
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Here is the technical explanation what I did which disturbed the bike completely.

My TPS was not bad, so now I have a spare. What I did is a sequence of mistakes which led to the mayor problem. First, I notice that the bar on the dash is not in the middle when bike was idling, to I released the TPS screws and moved it a bit down. In order to get the revs to 1500, I've increased the idle (with screwdriver, left side).

And then it started  Flaming Bar was again not as it should be, so i tip-ed the TPS a bit more down -> that reduced the revs -> so I've increased the idle, etc...

At the end, rich running, smoke from exhaust, and the bar was not moving from the upper position (even with the new TPS). So both my TPS & ECU were completely OK, but since I have a spare ECU, no damage done. I can live with spare TPS.

Why did the bar on the dash remain on the upper position whatever I did? The answer is actually simple now when I know what I did wrong. After taking some rest and meditation, I've rechecked the manual and it came all the sudden to me after reading this:

"NOTE: Make sure that the throttle lever should have a gap (between the throttle lever and throttle lever stopper screw) during synchronization"

So I went back to garage just to check the gap: it was way beyond 1 mm. And it should be 0.3 mm



Also, I've immediately check the fast idle and it was obvious, the gap was too big:



The important thing to know which I missed - correcting idle puts this two configurable levers out of sync! So fighting with TPS and idle, I was putting the whole TB out of sync...

Another lesson learned!

Don't know how much it was pointed out until now, but be aware that changing idle WILL affect fast idle and throttle lever gap. So synchronization is really one important & not completely trivial procedure for smooth running of our bikes.

Don't bother with resistance specs found in the manual, they are not 100% accurate and they vary. This is why each bike is on its own.

Anyway, today I couldn't continue synchronization with running bike, it's Sunday and making noise is not allowed, so next week I'll continue.

I must say I'm relieved after my bellowed bike was running so bad. Not knowing what is going on, really put me down  Grin


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johnofchar
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« REPLY #16 on: 04/25/10 1910 Hours »
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Yep, these things all have to be in spec as they work together. We had a bike out in SD last year that the sync was so bad that the idle was set high to compensate which reduced the gap to zero. The only thing we could do to get it back was reduce the idle adjust so it wouldn't idle & than started syncing at 4000 RPM. Slowly adjust sync down the RPM range, readjusted idle & then last sync. After it was all done the gap was correct without adjusting it. Had me going for awhile there. Always check that gap! A high idle adjustment will also mess with the fast idle linkage and screw things up.
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ib
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« REPLY #17 on: 05/01/10 1319 Hours »
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So, i synchronized the bike finally, but none of the methods we know worked except the feeling and "the ear". This leaves me confused, but now the bike work like it should after the 3rd attempt (in 4 weeks...).

After "resetting" the TB by decreasing the idle adjustment a lot (6-7 full turns), bike started behaving like normal again. That says I could play with the TPS position while the bike was running. Before it was impossible to do the same because bike was totally unpredictable, shutting off unexpectedly and obviously consuming too much.

So I managed to put the TPS in position that the bar moves to upper position when revs reach 1500. The problem is that as soon as you tighten the TPS, readings will change. After many synchronizations I did until now, must say I don't believe in either what is written in the manual, or shown in Suzuki video.

Synchronization is purely mechanical work, listening and observing, having in mind the most important parameters: throttle lever should have a gap of 0.3 mm and fast-idle should be set correctly, initially with a small gap (ignition off). I'll ignore the rest in the future.

The first recorded attempt was when I managed to get the bar in the middle when idling and upper position when revs are 1500 or more, and the bike was running fine. But one things was indicating a problem - on 2500 revs I could see the exhaust smoke, and I didn't like this. Here is the first attempt:

LQ | LQ+ | HQ


Because I didn't like the exhaust smoke in lower revs, I started the whole procedure again. After all, I managed to get the TPS in the position that was not ideal according to the display, but the engine was in the best running state it could be. No smoke in lower revs, a bit at ~6000 revs which is normal, and whatever the manual or video says, I'll keep this setting  Evil


LQ | LQ+ | HQ


TB synchronized:

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johnofchar
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« REPLY #18 on: 05/01/10 1503 Hours »
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 Huh? Every vee I've worked on has shown normal results from TPS & TBS adjustment. Having the upper bar on TPS display at idle may cause it to be running a little rich. I set mine around 1800 RPM with good results.

If your pushing down on the sync screw when adjusting it will mess with the idle speed. Best to tweak, brief throttle burst & recheck at idle. Then tweak, burp, recheck, etc.

ECU controls fuel (injector pulse width) at idle (and when not in gear) in open loop mode, that's O2 sensor not in loop. It relies mainly on RPM, air temp, water temp, intake air pressure (varies with altitude, humidity, air temp), & initial TPS reading to control injection time. When you get your SDC back, check injection time with TPS set like you have it & then at mid bar at idle.
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« REPLY #19 on: 05/01/10 1509 Hours »
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When I had the mid bar, the bike would run very rich. Was easy to spot this looking at the exhaust. I'll run the bike like this and check the consumption. Will be interesting to see the results. At the end of the season, I'll put the TB down and clean it. Next year all over again  Thumbs Up
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johnofchar
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« REPLY #20 on: 05/01/10 1519 Hours »
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That's just backward from how it should be. Thinking you should still check TPS supply voltage, ground & wires to ECU. Also recheck that TPS high & low output resistance & voltage.
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ib
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« REPLY #21 on: 05/02/10 0755 Hours »
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That's just backward from how it should be. Thinking you should still check TPS supply voltage, ground & wires to ECU. Also recheck that TPS high & low output resistance & voltage.

I'll do it but not now. My season is short ant I'll ride now, no matter. Bike is running fine, so should be OK. November will be here sooner than I want, and then I'll start working on the bike on time.
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ib
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« REPLY #22 on: 05/09/10 1957 Hours »
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That's just backward from how it should be. Thinking you should still check TPS supply voltage, ground & wires to ECU. Also recheck that TPS high & low output resistance & voltage.

You were right John,

today's test ride was disappointing. Bike works OK in lower revs, but all above 3000 until 6000 is unusable. Not enough fuel, bike is hesitating, opening throttle does nothing. So I have to go all over again. When I prepare the bike for testing, I'll come back here, and describe all what I did & measured. Now I'm curious to solve this issue  Grin
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ib
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« REPLY #23 on: 05/25/10 2129 Hours »
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Bike runs perfectly. Better than ever  Thumbs Up Here is the story.

This time I did it right - fresh, after good rest and without other obligations, with enough time, internet connection and manual, OBD tool. All I can say, mr. Suzuki  was right - all works like specified. After 6 years and more than 90.000 km  Thumbs Up

I did the mayor mistake when installing the TPS sensor. First of all, the original TPS sensor was not broken. The whole TB was mis-configured. The biggest error I did - installed two rubber gaskets (#3 on the next diagram), which brought so many problems  Lips Sealed



This rubber instantly created sticky throttle feeling. For the first time in 6 years.

I've started from the beginning, removed the TPS sensor, found the additional rubber  Flaming, install TPS back according to the specs and then tried the throttle once again - fast return, as expected.

Then I did the manual procedure:

4-36 FI SYSTEM - “C14” TP SENSOR CIRCUIT MALFUNCTION:

1.  TP sensor input voltage: 4.5 – 5.5 V




And measuring on another connector:



2. TP sensor continuity: ?? (Infinity)

I have no photos here, missed another pair of hands... But all was according to specs.

3. TP sensor resistance - Throttle valve is closed : Approx. 1.1 k? - Throttle valve is opened: Approx. 4.3 k?






4.  TP sensor output voltage - Throttle valve is closed : Approx. 1.1 V - Throttle valve is opened: Approx. 4.3 V



So, everything was according to specs.

Fixed the TPS so that resistance measurement is according to specs (throttle valve closed : approx. 1.1 k? - throttle valve fully opened: approx. 4.3 k?), connect the OBD tool and spot few errors that were there since the day 1. Nobody ever cleaned this errors:



Cleaned the errors, then connect the Teka tool and reset the KLV (from SI's former KLV) ECU that in now in my bike:



Started the engine - beautiful sound....
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ib
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« REPLY #24 on: 05/25/10 2136 Hours »
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I did the sync according to the manual. Engine hot, checked the right temperature with OBD tool, engine off, verified that the bar is in the middle (using Dealers Switch):



Bike passed the rigorous TÜV test (lucky you Americans...) and today I did the longer ride. All what I can say, what a great bike this Strom is...

Here is how it looks now:







Couple of things that makes you wondering...

1. SI had PCIII installed in his KLV. He was very unsatisfied with KLV's initial rough running, and the only thing he could do was to install PCIII to smooth the engine.  Huh? Huh? Huh?

Well, my bike was running today (with his ECU) and all the values reset to '0' - marvelously. Powerful, smooth, no rough running in lower revs  Thumbs Up I was also surprised, because I had to use +1.5% idle and +5% low previously to smooth the engine. But obviously, it also depends on the proper TPS sync...

2. I positioned TPS on completely cold bike using multimeter and OBD tool. No other TPS adjustment was later needed when the engine was hot. And the bike runs better than ever.

Will come back later this year and report the consumption. I'm very curious.

At the end, engine sound while doing the TBS synchronization:

http://v-strom.hr/MGalleryItem.php?id=2501

Very happy after all  Thumbs Up
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johnofchar
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« REPLY #25 on: 05/26/10 0333 Hours »
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 Thumbs Up Where are the pipes?
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« REPLY #26 on: 05/26/10 0432 Hours »
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Pipes are ready and will be installled shortly ;-)
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