I want ABS

[Peter]

Here is a translated article from the German motorcycle magazine 'Motorrad', edition 10/2003. I think there is a lot of prejustice regarding ABS. This article cleary cleans up with some of the things people believe to know about ABS..

The magazine has put up several times critical remarks about the last incarnations of the BMW ABS system, and it is very clear they believe the Honda ABS is the best system currently available. This was also made clear with the ride report about the Varadero ABS, which uses a modified VFR800 system. My next motorcycle very sure comes with ABS. But    not BMW. I do not like their newer "lifestyle motorcycles" anymore. The "idiot prove" ABS and servo brakes combo just fit into their latest model strategies.

I want my Strom with ABS!


But now to the article:




The Human and ABS  
ABSOLUTION

Can ABS systems relieve the motorcyclist when doing braking errors, or even solve eventual braking problems themselves just as well? A comprehensive analysis.
by Waldemar Schwarz


  From MOTORRAD 10/2003

The Top test of the Yamaha FJR 1300 with ABS (MOTORRAD 6/2003) drove them onto the barricades. Ultimative late- and megabreakers cemented their prejudices. An active discussion around the allegedly small value of 8,4 m/s² swapped over into the motorcycle on-line forum. Allegedly, because test professionals create values around 10 m/s² under ideal conditions, which approaches the physical limit,  depending upon type of motorcycle. Volker Deutschmann assumed a technical mega flop, and , oh misery, he had ordered a FJR 1300 ABS blindly without test drive. His only hope:  It may perhaps not at the ABS's fault, but at the tires, which were supposed to be suitable for low outside temperatures only. Or the full moon might have been the culprit. Bernd J. comments: "I cannot imagine that Yamaha designed really such a muck ... the values with ABS are accurately those, which every normal motorcyclist can achieve at any time."

Latter statement gets rightfully relative through other contributions: "With all justified criticism, the actual braking distance is still shorter, than what a normal driver without ABS gets out. Or he is landing on his beart, owing to an overbreaked front wheel. Interesting it would be, as how the breaking results with and without ABS not only for the professional breaker is. Would it be different also for the average rider?" Just the question, which MOTORRAD now finally is out to clarify - not at least in order to eliminate questionable "wisdom" once for all.


"Motorcyclist of the Year", a sumptuous fundus top driver list

Important preliminary work had already been carried out by the MOTORRAD  ACTION TEAM in  connection with the search for the "Motorcyclist of the Year 2002". During the prequalification rounds of the braking competition several hundred participants had to pro stop from an initial speed of 70 km/h within shortest distance possible. A measuring instrument noted accurately the process of the delay, as well as the force. From this sumptuous fundus the MOTORRAD team could get a comprehensive picture.
Exemplary the results of two mixed groups were analyzed, which are good for a nice surprise: The average braking results of 19 drivers from the first group amounts to 6.2 m/s². To make it clear: This is a value, which is regarded completely tidy looked at by itself. Under the default assumption however that this exercise shall address ambitioned motorradcyclists, who do estimate their driving abilities as rather high, it appears this value is only average. And besides, it is far from the level which was achived by the FJR 1300 with ABS.

Even more remarkable: The engaged sport driver parliamentary group with Yamaha R 1, Honda Fireblade and co. did not turn out by any means as a superior brake species, but braked with 6,1 m/s² on the average even still slightly more badly than the remainder of the motorcycle world. Absolute front runner is R 1150 GS rider Aaron T. He created - owing to ABS system – an average value of 7,9 m/s². Certainly without exhausting however the potencial of the ABS system completely.

The second group with 26 riders braked amazingly better than the first, with an average delay of 6,8 m/s². But with some analysis the difference is cleared up fast: Six BMW boxers and F 650 GS riders with ABS do drive the aver of the group up. Measured isolated, they did get results from 7,2 to 8.1 m/s² - clearly over their competitors. Only a lonely Yamaha TDM 900 rider can mix together them. With 8,1 m/s² he is in the top group of the ABS guys.

If one looks closer into the details of the braking process, the measurements prove clear as glass: Even above the average experienced motorcyclists do not exhaust the potenzial of their brakes appropiately. Because they do serious mistakes. As the normal rider uses in case of emergency far less than 50 per cent of the possibilities of the stoppers, experienced twowheelers do likewise lose time and thus valuable meters when stopping. The reason: About the speed the speedometer informs, but with slowing down the pilot must alone rely on his feeling. And this often deceives. Individuals sure achieved during the process of their braking values of up to 10,0 m/s², but their  hesitant structure of applying brake pressure destroys a good total delay (see box page 64). Over half of the pilots start to brake with extremely small brake pressure, and increase it continuously up to the end of the braking. An instinktive behavior, which is understandable from fear of malicious overbraking, thus already at the beginning of the braking enormously long distances are given away.

However, an ABS can manage the fast application of brake pressure safely. A fact, which is proven by the large extent good results from the riders with ABS system. These result are from the hard grasp into the brake, so already after two to three tenths of seconds they reach about 80 per cent of their maximum delay. But not only at the beginning of the braking process without ABS valuable meters are given away, but also in the further process. Many riders increase the brake pressure continuously, forget however far before tire blocking their own courage and loosen the brake briefly, in order to then start the same braking game again.

With most participants from our search for the "Motorcyclist of the Year" indeed we noticed several overlaying weaknesses. Out of altogether 45 drivers, 25 develop the brake pressure too slowly, 16 of  them loosens the brake out of fear for overbraking - completely unnecessarily far before the tires blocking. Real world result: Out of 45 routinier brakers in the whole only eight earn truly this titel, with 3 from them originating from the ABS camp. And this is the result, even the drivers had time and opportunity for exercising braking. An opportunity, which we did not give during the next scene of crime.


Rooky meets Routinier: "Good braking with ABS"

Five motorcyclists (box starting from page 65) with completely different ambitions and backgrounds first show on the highway, what the level of braking skills in real motorcycle life is like. All skills are represented: The rookie Mirjam Mueller, the normal drivers Daniel Alves de Jesus and Manuel Fuchs, as well the experienced sportracer Oliver Noske, and last but not least the seasoned routinier and milemuncher Volker Deutschmann - exactly the one, who had kicked off the discussion about the ABS of the Yamaha FJR 1300 A in the motorcycle on-line forum.

The first exercise: Each rider rides a round course of 35 kilometers in the Swabian-Frankish forest, which consists a mix of badly visible bends, fast straights, and from far visible in mountain and valley bedded changing twisties. Everything, what usually the motorcyclist heart desires. Each pilot must complete the course without route knowledge or other leading motorcycles, exactly as during a tour in the real life. Available was a choice of ABS motorcycles of completely different shades of character, choice depending upon personal gusto. The choice was in between the BMW F 650 GS, the sporttourers Honda VFR 800, and Ducati ST 4S, up to the powertourer Yamaha FJR 1300 A. Rookie Mirjam preferred the BMWS F 650, Daniel and Manuel grabs the VFR, Ducati-998 owner Oliver naturally the Ducati ST 4S, and FJR owner Volker, how could it be different, the Yamaha. The machines are equipped with DATA Recording, which notes the speed process and the delays accurately.

The result: The average braking results of all participants are in between 2 to 3 m/s². Whereby it should be reminded, that we are not talking here about full stops until standstill. With the peak values the test field was pretty close centered around 4,2 to 4.4 m/s². As a proven top braker Volker was outed. His values were tendentious more high. Once he even peaked with 6,4 m/s². Asked for the reason, he immediately replies with the explanation: "I wanted to try out whether the ABS comes into action." He would have to activate the stoppers however far more violently.

This chance is offered a short time later to the candidates. From the Swabian-Frankish forest our way leads straight onto the racecourse Hockenheim. On closed terrain each driver can not only get a sense of his own capabilities, but also of the ABS, and safely explore the borders of physics. The tasks: To complete a full stop at everyones personal limit from an initial speed of 100 km/h without net and ABS. The drivers do not know whether the ABS is activated or not. Again data recording notes each delay, additionally distance and speed measurements supports the individual results.

And this now is completely different: The bandwith is between 5,5 and 7,0 m/s², and is accurately in the range, which the "Motorcyclist of the Year" group had achived. Again Volker brakes the others out with no mercy. He needs some time in order to develop a high delay, increases then however to the limit of the FJR without ABS: 9,5 m/s². If he would not have lost so many meters at the beginning of the braking process, he would have come to an absolute top result. But still, a respectable 7.9 m/s² in average is a good achivement. Nevertheless, it misses the maximum of the FJR with ABS clearly.

Next: Exercising is what makes the master. Now the five shall push their own limits futher, and learn confidence in the different ABS systems. After numerous brakings Mirjam improves with the BMW into areas of over 8 m/s², and remarks for still higher delays her hand strength is not sufficient. We believe however it rather being a psychological barrier. Daniel uses the real potencial of the VFR ABS. The same applies to Manuel. Oliver with confidence in the electronic aids gets 10 m/s². A range, within which the Ducati slowly begins to lift the rear wheel, but the ABS still does not regulate! Volker overcomes with a trick the ABS limitations of the FJR,  with individual braking pulses by proportional building up of brake pressure he creates 9,5 m/s². For the rehabilitation of the others it should be noted, that this routinier tested different ABS systems in the past already. Thus, he knew how to get most out of it. With normal ABS action we got a typical 8.5 m/s² for the Yamaha.

After the experiences with the three other motorcycle models during the test runs all five drivers came to the same result: The ABS of the VFR is among the tested systems unquestionable the first choice. It does not confront a driver with any sort of problems. Even critical Volker Deutschmann agrees, as the other participants, that ABS means an enormous increase of rider safety.  The potencial of an ABS system is skyhigh over that of each normal driver. The difference is so high, that even after a lot of practicing they can not make full use of the motorbikes braking potential with no ABS.

Four of the five candidates nevertheless now have learned reaching delays, which they would only dream about at the beginning of the test.  The dimensions, the knowledge, of what is really feasible have enormously shifted up. After intensive exercise. But ABS is better -  and can still do more. It can care for all the little insecurities of our daily lives, as there are slippery  patches from road repair works, suddenly emerging obstacles, or just a suddenly wet road within your brake zone.

Such conditions – as MOTORRAD already had proven with numerous previous tests – can only be safely mastered with the assistance of ABS. Each ABS offers a strong safety plus, which pays in case of emergency the investment of 500 to 1000 Euro completely back., not talking about health matters.  

That has been clearly proven by our tests. And besides, as another good result, Volker calms down.   He will exchange now his old Yamaha FJR with a new one.  Because as a megaflop the Yamaha ABS can not be called, by all means. But his demand remains:  "I expect from Yamaha that they still refine the ABS."

[kvykvy]

i totally agree with u.
why the hell doesn`t suzuki produce as with an ABS strom?
   

[Anonymous]

QUOTE BEGIN >>>Peter wrote on 25.11.2003 01:07[/i]
I want my Strom with ABS!


But now to the article:

<<< QUOTE END
(H.F. notice I "trimmed" the article from my response)

I don't want ABS....if you can get it as an option on yours, fine, but I would not pay one dime more in the cost to have it, and I would not buy a motorcycle equipped with it, if the Strom was ABS only, I would not have bought it.

Are you aware of the fact that if you had a total loss of electrical power while the bike was moving, that you could have a scenario where you would have NO brakes?

How likely is that scenario? Probably small, but still, why relegate yet another function to a sophisticated, expensive processor controlled circuit, when good judgement and skill work equally well, or in *many* cases, better.

A simple web search will return a long list of problems and recalls associated with ABS circuits in cars, commercial vehicles, and failure of same. One of the more recent ones involves Volkswagen....under "consequences" it shows a rather deceptive choice of words "carbonization of the multi-layered circuit board controlling the ABS system leading to a fire" or some such...they very carefully avoid stating the end result...a fire inside the passenger compartment of an automobile, which, by the way, also has no brakes.

I hold ABS in utter disdain, it is yet another attempt to remove the operator of a motor vehicle from a large portion of their responsibility in using sound judgement to *avoid* accidents in the first place....particularly in automobiles.

http://www.strategicsafety.com/library/n020402.htm

http://autorepair.about.com/library/recalls/bl-recalls-076b.htm

An editorial opinion related to motorcycles:
http://www.msgroup.org/TIP083.html

Of course this may all be a moot point, at least here in the U.S., the government is fully involved in researching the "problem" of motorcyclists not being properly skilled or educated on how to ride a motorcycle safely. If past trends continue, their most likely course of action will be to eventually *require* ABS on motorcycles, even though their own research with automobiles led them to abandon such efforts for a host of reaons....not the least of which being that an ABS equipped automobile does NOT stop in a shorter distant than a non-ABS vehicle under *most* conditions and circumstances.

http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/people/injury/pedbimot/motorcycle/00-NHT-212-motorcycle/motorcycle45-46.html

Hubert
03 #814

[Anonymous]

What Roy and Hubert said.  

[Anonymous]

QUOTE BEGIN >>>Hubert Few wrote on 25.11.2003 04:26[/i]

Are you aware of the fact that if you had a total loss of electrical power while the bike was moving, that you could have a scenario where you would have NO brakes?

<<< QUOTE END

Such a system would not be legal for sale in the US. The DOT requires that the brakes will function mechanically after a complete loss of power.

Servo assisted brakes (vacuum or electric) must operate mechanically after either a servo failure or a power failure.

ABS brakes must function mechanically if the ABS fails.

The braking effort of some systems becomes an order of magnitude higher, but to be sold for use on US highways a failed servo assist or ABS cannot prevent the brakes from operating.

No one (that is not on drugs) ever claimed that ABS would stop a vehicle in the shortest distance. In a brain dead operator panic stop that would lock the wheels, ABS will certainly stop the vehicle faster.

The Experienced Rider Course standard for braking is stopping in 13 feet from 15 MPH and in 34 feet from 25 MPH. This is about .6 G or 6m/s^2.

6m/s^s is close to the performance of the riders in the German test. It is nowhere near the 8.5m/s^2 that the ABS FJR was able to achieve.

For most riders it takes practice to get up to a puny .6G braking level. At .85G the ABS FJR stops shorter with no practice. 9.8 feet shorter from 25 MPH than the ERC standard. From 100KPH (62MPH) the ERC stop is 215 feet, the ABS FJR stops in 149 feet, 66 feet shorter.

Is it possible to stop better than the ABS FJR? Absolutely! Is it likely that even an experienced rider could stop it consistently better? I don't think so. During what is considered a high performance street stop, the ABS system does not even come into action. The point that was made is in a panic situation the ABS can react to the available traction conditions  and keep the bike under control while the rider can concentrate on pointing the bike instead of trying to read the pavement under the front wheel.

If you always ride so that you can safely stop using your well-practiced .6G stopping rate fine. Heaven help you if you are behind a car with ABS that can make an .8G ABS panic stop. You will end up in the trunk.

The no ABS on racetracks argument is moot. On the street you don't have certain knowledge of pavement conditions and cannot use that level of braking. Sure racetrack experience allows you to learn the limits on clean pavement, with no traffic, no soccer moms pulling out from driveways, and hopefully no animals bounding onto the track in front of you. The streets I ride on are apt to have patches of wet leaves in the shade of a tree at corner entrances, my world has driveways full of mini-vans backing out into traffic, on-coming traffic, and a variety of furry critters that are trying to play Frogger(tm) across my lane. Safe passage demands that I ride at a speed that will allow for all of these things. If I miss a threat and ABS will buy me 66 feet, sign me up.

Of course all you guys that don't like computer controls probably have defeated the secondary throttles from the EFI so you have total control of the flat spot you just created. Hubert has Delorto's on his, so he doesn't have to worry about the ECU catching fire and melting his custom seat.

Come on guys, if you don't want ABS fine, just don't try to tell me that it somehow makes the bike less safe. That dog won't hunt.

[johnofchar]

The BMW servo assisted brakes will still work with a power loss, but not well. They take  a lot of force to operate. My 02 RT had the full linked system and I hated it. My present RS has the partial linked, front lever applies both & foot lever just works the rear and I love it.

I think where the ABS is good, most riders can loose control in a panic situation, ABS can save them from this. The other good thing about ABS is that you can still steer while under full braking.

I contribute one crash save to BMW ABS. It would have been a nasty one.

jw

[Peter]

If it safes your butt one time only, it paid back already.

I remember what people said, when they made laws to wear helmets (uh they are taking away my freedom...!). Or to buckle up in cars (I can't breeze anymore, I can't move anymore, and the belt is dangerous and breaks my rips...).

In 5 years most of new launches will have ABS. In 10 years people will take it for natural, same as the belt and the helmet. 80 % of people even with lots of practice do not even come anywhere close to the values the worst ABS can achive, and  95 % of the people will never come anywhere close to the braking of the better ABS's. This facts are just too convincing to the official bodies. If the people or the Japanese motorcycle industry wants it or not does not really matter, I guess.

ABS will come, that is clear.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE BEGIN >>>Peter wrote on 25.11.2003 17:44[/i]

I remember what people said, when they made laws to wear helmets (uh they are taking away my freedom...!). Or to buckle up in cars (I can't breeze anymore, I can't move anymore, and the belt is dangerous and breaks my rips...).

ABS will come, that is clear.<<< QUOTE END

They did take away free choice when they required seat belts and helmets.  It's a slippery slope.

IMHO- Helmet laws suck, seat belt laws suck, laws that limit magazines to 10 rounds suck and finally ABS laws would suck even worse.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE BEGIN >>>Rich SmithMoore wrote on 26.11.2003 17:26[/i]

They did take away free choice when they required seat belts and helmets.  It's a slippery slope.

IMHO- Helmet laws suck, seat belt laws suck, laws that limit magazines to 10 rounds suck and finally ABS laws would suck even worse. <<< QUOTE END

You need more than 10 rounds? You gots lots of targets or are you a bad shot?

Helmet laws for Adults suck, agreed. Having a good standard for helmets and only allowing helmets that meet that standard to be sold is okay by me (not saying we do, since you can buy tupperware with a DOT sticker on it).

Seat belt laws for Adult drivers suck for the same reason. As do all passive restraint laws.

ABS laws would suck too *if* we had some decent testing and skills evaluation for drivers. If the driver that locked the brakes up, skidded into my lane and hit me head-on had an ABS equipped car, there is a better chance that I wouldn't be going to physical therapy twice a week instead of going to work.

Even with my personal experience, I have to agree, manditory ABS would just be one more excuse not to teach or require any skills to get a drivers license. So yes ABS laws would suck too.

Nice to know that I can make you mad, there's a good chance I can dodge before you get the second clip in. LOL!

[Peter]

QUOTE BEGIN >>>
Helmet laws for Adults suck, agreed. Having a good standard for helmets and only allowing helmets that meet that standard to be sold is okay by me (not saying we do, since you can buy tupperware with a DOT sticker on it).<<< QUOTE END

That is the situation in EU (of course some of the mediteranian countries do not enforce this so stict). In Germany it is illigal to use a non EC approved helmet. If you get an accident, you don't see a cent.


QUOTE BEGIN >>>Seat belt laws for Adult drivers suck for the same reason. As do all passive restraint laws. <<< QUOTE END

Nobody in Germany would have the idea questioning the usefullness of a seat belt. I guess the wear rate is coming close to 100%. If you get an accident wearing no seat belt, it's pretty easy for the insurance to see through the kind of injuries that you have not worn a seat belt. They would not give you a dime.


ABS:
That's the good thing about being a minority. The law makers do currently not focus to enforce making such laws, but they hope the indiustry and the market will solve this by itself. That is why we should ask the motorcycle makers to offer ABS bikes.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE BEGIN >>>Stromrider 1583 wrote on 26.11.2003 19:49[/i]

You need more than 10 rounds? You gots lots of targets or are you a bad shot?

<<< QUOTE END

I get excited.  One time I put four rounds into a turkey.  All were good hits.  It's just that sometimes the difference between a live and a dead target is kind of a "grey" area.

Especially with turkeys.

[elizilla]

I think Randy was saying that those stickers commonly appear on helmets that don't meet the DOT standard.  He wasn't saying anything either way about whether it's a good standard, just commenting on the enforcement of the standard, or lack thereof.

Surely you have seen the DOT stickers on the novelty beanie helmets next to all the other stickers that say "If it's too loud you're too old" and "Helmet laws suck!" and "Harley Davison, holding up traffic for 100 years."

[Anonymous]

QUOTE BEGIN >>>elizilla wrote on 26.11.2003 20:20[/i]

I think Randy was saying that those stickers commonly appear on helmets that don't meet the DOT standard.  He wasn't saying anything either way about whether it's a good standard, just commenting on the enforcement of the standard, or lack thereof.

Surely you have seen the DOT stickers on the novelty beanie helmets next to all the other stickers that say "If it's too loud you're too old" and "Helmet laws suck!" and "Harley Davison, holding up traffic for 100 years."

<<< QUOTE END

This really isn't the place, but I think government's role should be to create standards and test products for compliance. If you choose to buy and wear a helmet, you should have some assurance that it will protect you. If you couldn't buy a helmet that didn't meet DOT, you still should have the choice not to wear one at all. In the back of their little minds, those 40 something RUB's think they have some protection, but don't want to look "uncool" by wearing a real helmet. I know their families and their Lawyers are going to point to that DOT sticker and start suing after daddy too dumb cracks his skull and Buffy has to start worrying about the house payment.

I like the idea of no helmet law, but if you aren't wearing one the insurance does not pay. Let the people have their choice, but don't expect to be insured after you've demonstrated that you refuse to take actions to reduce your own risk.

Hell, while I'm off topic, lets let the insurance companies jack the rates up to nose bleed levels for anyone that hasn't taken a rider course and demonstrated a certain level of skill. You could still by your $30000 fake penis H-D, ride it without a helmet, and not take a skills training course, it would just cost you $12000 a year for insurance. In my world if you certified on a 250-400cc class bike you would have to re-cert if you moved onto a 401-600 or play the high rate. If you certify on your Roadpig 2000, fine, just no more renting a scooter for the test then going home and jumping on the ground pounder. Would demonstrating the ability to pick the bike up after a tip-over be too tough a test? Probably a bad idea, daddy dimwit would have a stroke and I'd be stuck with a dead guy, all that lousy paperwork, and the kromehog sitting there on its side bleeding hydrocarbons into the environment like the gored icon of virility it is until the crane shows up to haul the carcass away.

I'm not blind, I see the down side of this. All the Buffy's would know that the truly rich guys would be the ones on the Webly-Vickers 2500 Street-Stompers with no helmets and chose to breed with them, thus lowering the average IQ of the population even further.

So much for reason.

[Anonymous]

I think it would be a great idea to have ABS on all street legal bikes and while their at it make them all automatic transmissions.What do we need those gears for anyways?  Now there would be alot less to learn and distract motorcycle riders!! Hell,then you could talk on your cell phone,change cd's in the stereo,eat fast food,put on make up etc.  

[Anonymous]

QUOTE BEGIN >>>Stromrider 1583 wrote on 27.11.2003 01:17[/i]

This really isn't the place, but I think government's role should be to create standards and test products for compliance.

<snip>

I like the idea of no helmet law, but if you aren't wearing one the insurance does not pay. Let the people have their choice, but don't expect to be insured after you've demonstrated that you refuse to take actions to reduce your own risk.

<<< QUOTE END

Two points:

A) Screw the government.  When it comes to helmets the Snell Foundation (Private Enterprise) stepped up to the plate with a very good rating program.  And reacted very quickly to criticism of their standards. The DOT standard was last updated in........

B) The next step on your insurance plan will be to not cover you unless you're in a car surrounded by airbags.  Riding bikes demonstrates an inability to "take actions to reduce your own risk".

[Anonymous]

QUOTE BEGIN >>>Rich SmithMoore wrote on 27.11.2003 10:15[/i]

QUOTE BEGIN >>>Stromrider 1583 wrote on 27.11.2003 01:17[/i]

This really isn't the place, but I think government's role should be to create standards and test products for compliance.

<snip>

I like the idea of no helmet law, but if you aren't wearing one the insurance does not pay. Let the people have their choice, but don't expect to be insured after you've demonstrated that you refuse to take actions to reduce your own risk.

<<< QUOTE END

Two points:

A) Screw the government.  When it comes to helmets the Snell Foundation (Private Enterprise) stepped up to the plate with a very good rating program.  And reacted very quickly to criticism of their standards. The DOT standard was last updated in........

B) The next step on your insurance plan will be to not cover you unless you're in a car surrounded by airbags.  Riding bikes demonstrates an inability to "take actions to reduce your own risk".

<<< QUOTE END

A) The government could and in many cases should, simply adopt the existing indutry standard. Snell is a good example. Adopting the IIHS standards would be bad, since unlike Snell, the IIHS is funded by the insurance industry. Items that are sold should be safe for their intended use, where no indpendant standard exists, I think a valid role for government should be to create one. Not mandate their use, but to provide a reasonable expectaion of the product functioning properly for those that choose to use such items. I would for sure rather see tax dollars funding product testing and support for standards than buying $500 toilet seats for military aircraft.

B) Rats, I saw the flaw in that afer I posted, I was hoping you'd miss it.

Would you settle for allowing insurers to add a clause that would set rates based on a customer's statement of their intent to wear a helmet/seat belt and deny medical coverage if the contract was breached? I'm trying to think of some sort of NON government plan to make not using safety gear un-atractive. If bubba wads his bike up, his insureance covers the damage to the bike, the rates for all of us reflect how often the bubba crash. If bubba wads his bike while not wearing a helmet, does his medical coverage take care of the bills? Does that effect my rates? If it does, why should I have to pay higher rates because insurance companies insure the bubbas? I understand higher rates for higher risk activities, thats only fair. But I see a difference between wearing ATGATT and riding in a tank top, jeans, flip-flops and and no helmet. I think there should be a way to alter the rates based on that.

In the cases where the other vehicle is at fault, it would not be fair to withhold coverage from the bubbas, it wasn't their fault they got hit. But in single vehicle crashes, chosing not to wear protective gear should not be factored into the rates for people that do.

Does that make more sense?

[Burren Rider]

G'Day,

From a dirt riding perspective, ABS sucks. On a loose surface brakes do a lot more than simply slow the bike down, and the ability to lock the rear is often required to change the attitude of the bike and help avoid situations that would otherwise get ugly. That and the fact that you can't do big skids and back it into a corner on the tar, takes all the fun out of it really. Just my opinon of course but I hope they leave it on Goldwings and the like, not adventure bikes like the V-Strom.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE BEGIN >>>Burren Rider wrote on 27.11.2003 14:14[/i]

G'Day,

From a dirt riding perspective, ABS sucks. On a loose surface brakes do a lot more than simply slow the bike down, and the ability to lock the rear is often required to change the attitude of the bike and help avoid situations that would otherwise get ugly. That and the fact that you can't do big skids and back it into a corner on the tar, takes all the fun out of it really. Just my opinon of course but I hope they leave it on Goldwings and the like, not adventure bikes like the V-Strom.<<< QUOTE END

Yep, and the mark of any dual-purpose vehicle is the ABS defeat switch for those conditions. BMW GS's have them, as do Subaru WRX's. I'll bet for both vehicles the switch if hardly ever used, but makes good converstaion when you point the switch out to your date and explain how you often need to lock the brakes up on the way to the store.

Not having a switch labeled "ABS OFF" marks the vehicle as a poser-mobile.

For about $10 you can get a blinking led and a switch from Radio Shack, add a Label and I could have a blinking indicator that I "forgot" to turn the ABS back on after the Dakar run to starbucks ...

Just teasing.

I'm not saying that I want/need ABS for my bike, *but* if I had the option of having a .8-9 G stopping system for a reasonable extra cost, I'd consider it. I "option" to wear almost $2000 in safer gear every time I ride, having the option of ABS that works for an extra $$$ would be an everyday street safety item that would give me an edge.

NO WAY should ABS be required however.

[Peter]

Should I be the last person in this forum: I still want ABS. Knock-out criteria for my next motorcycle purchase.

[Peter]

Yep, that's an example why I want ABS http://club.storm-riders.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=942

[Anonymous]

I wonder if all those that helmet and seat belt laws are "taking away one's freedom" camp...should those people pay higher insurance rates?  Wearing seat belts and wearing helmets has certainly reduced injuries which translate to medical cost and facilities going towards other needed diease and injuries...if you don't want to wear a seat belt or a helmet and can't afford to pay for the injuries that accompany that...should I pay more in insurance?  They charge a lot more for smokers life insurance than non-smokers.

[Anonymous]

Looks like the 2005 yamaha TDM(not avail. in the U.S.) is going to have ABS this year, maybe this will spur suzuki on into having this option.

[Peter]

Available with ABS
Aprilia Capanord
BMW 1200 GS
Honda Varadero
Yamaha TDM

Not available with ABS
Triumph Tiger
Suzuki V-Strom